Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to Image Unscripted, the official NAACP Image Awards podcast. Hosted by me, Jemele Hill. Image Unscripted features candid conversations with its brightest black voices, discussing pivotal life moments, giving them their flowers and how they are advancing the community. A reminder, subscribe to our YouTube channel and rate us five stars on Apple Podcasts. Today on Image Unscripted, I'm chatting with J. Ann Lopez and Cleo Thomas to tap in for a candid conversation on the state of gaming and black folks influence within it.
From their multi hyphenate professions and community building to the real economics behind the content. They break down how big money moves in the gaming industry, what it costs to show up online and the future they want to see in gaming. We'll get into why representation still matters in gaming and how this movement in gaming is different than the rest.
[00:00:55] Speaker B: Thank you Cleo and Jian for joining me here on Image Unscripted. I have to start in a very natural place and that is congratulations on your NAACP nomination. Outstanding digital content Creator in gaming and tech. So how does it feel to have been nominated?
[00:01:13] Speaker C: I mean for me personally it's a huge validation of like 10 years of work in the industry and it's also great to just be really one of the first. But also know that there'll be people following us behind because I think when you're in the kind of world that we are, we were talking earlier that we're multi hyphenate, it's sometimes hard to be recognized by institutions.
So when the NAACP is recognizing us, we know that there's going to be many, many people that have just also owed their due that are going to follow. It's a beautiful thing, really and truly.
[00:01:47] Speaker D: Yeah, definitely honored.
Growing up watching the NAACP Image Awards and I always thought I would have to book a role in order for me to be nominated. So to adapt with the times, I would have never thought my love for gaming would give me NAACP Image Award nomination. So it feels great.
[00:02:07] Speaker B: I'm going to ask you guys a question that I know people always run up and probably ask you all the time and that is what are the games that you are loving right now? Because people probably always want to know like okay, what are you into? So they can sort of follow along or maybe even ask you for some advice about how to play. So what's hot right now?
[00:02:27] Speaker C: There's a lot that's hot on my desk right now because I cannot stay still. So I choose like three or four games that I play.
Currently I'm playing through Avatar Frontiers of Pandora which is canon. So it's. It aligns with the story of the films. I prefer the games to the films. A little less certain demographic savior syndrome. So I prefer. I prefer to play as the nut V Ghost of Yotei. Beautiful game centered around Japanese culture and history.
Paleo, Very cozy game when I'm stressed and needing to relax. But those are the top three on my rotation right now.
[00:03:03] Speaker D: Yeah. For me, Fortnite, we're playing Mortal Kombat. We're still keeping our skills sharp in that, considering I won the Mortal Kombat tournament at dreamcon. So I always want to make sure that I can, you know, anybody wants a challenge, I'm ready for it.
[00:03:16] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:03:17] Speaker D: It's one of those things for me.
[00:03:18] Speaker B: I'm very confident. Talk your stuff.
[00:03:20] Speaker D: Very confident in that space.
And also a lot of retro games. I'm a big retro game collector. I have a lot of limited edition consoles.
So from the dreamcast to the N64 to PlayStation, I collect a lot of those old school games. So people who tune into my streams get a chance to not only see some of the newer stuff played, but also go down, you know, a nostalgia line with me and be able to play games like Star Fox 64. And.
[00:03:42] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, are you so retro that we talking like Nintendo retro? Oh, yeah.
[00:03:47] Speaker D: My first console wasn't Nintendo, man. My first console, my first memory of gaming is playing Wheel of Fortune and Mario Brothers with my dad on the Nintendo. And he was in the military, so he had. He'd won that Nintendo at like, something between him and his friends. So he just came home with that. And I'll forever be grateful for him bringing that home that day.
[00:04:07] Speaker B: Every now and again, I'll recite the code for Contra.
[00:04:10] Speaker D: Just up, up, right, left, right.
Come on now.
[00:04:17] Speaker B: I was born at the wrong time because I wish that gaming was what it is now. When I was growing up, my first console was an Atari. Yes. I'm five years old, so it's like I went from Atari to Nintendo. You know, I went through this. No, it was Atari, Sega Genesis, then Nintendo, then PlayStation, then PlayStation 2.
And I. I stopped after PlayStation 2. It's a whole story behind that. I'll tell y' all later.
[00:04:44] Speaker C: I'm like, why?
[00:04:45] Speaker D: I want to know what.
[00:04:48] Speaker B: Okay.
The tale goes like this.
[00:04:51] Speaker D: Okay?
[00:04:52] Speaker C: We're locked in.
[00:04:53] Speaker B: So I was. I was. I was dating, dating a fella, this is in my 20s. And we actually camped the PlayStation 2. Right. Because remember, it was a huge deal, right? Okay. And so we camped out for it at Best Buy did all the things, got the console, everything. And so I was really good at Madden. Madden was my thing. Like I've been playing Madden from the beginning. All that Tecmo bow. Look, you play me a techno bow right now, it's going to be some problems.
[00:05:20] Speaker C: All right?
[00:05:20] Speaker B: Okay. And, and I still have a Nintendo by the way. And so. But I just haven't played forever anyway, so we're both, you know, we both love this PS2 and essentially I was better at it than him. I like that. And it led to some conflict in the sense of like when we played it would get so competitive. It wasn't fun anymore. Not for me. And so it kind of. I know. Ladies, don't ever let a man ruin your gaming.
[00:05:49] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:05:50] Speaker B: Don't let a man do this to you. But it did, it just took something away from me. And so after that, that I literally have not picked up the sticks.
[00:05:59] Speaker C: Well, if you want a community of black women to play with, I've got one right here.
[00:06:04] Speaker B: That is true, that is true. I mean, I don't know. Have you guys experienced that as dating interrupted or come between you and your console?
[00:06:14] Speaker C: Not, not per se for me.
In my relationships I've probably been the person who is the gamer more so they kind of have to adapt. Like I had a past partner who just played one game at a time and I'll just be. So it was League of Legends and I'm not a League of Legends person so I play a variety of other games so it never clashed. But the experience of men getting competitive with you because you are a woman playing a game, I've experienced that a lot. Just fire friends.
They need to grow up, get over it. It's annoying. So yeah.
[00:06:45] Speaker B: Well, what about you, Cleo?
[00:06:46] Speaker D: No, I've never experienced that.
[00:06:48] Speaker B: First of all, Cleo, we know how you feel about like you, you are a lone wolf out in these dating streets.
[00:06:54] Speaker D: Listen, if you, if we're going to play games, we're going to play games that we can do together. We'll do a co op game, you know what I mean? So it's not a compet, you know, if, maybe, maybe Mario Kart is the biggest competitive game we're going to play. But you know, you guys mentioned as far as, you know, women in gaming and the, the, the, the atmosphere that they may have to face dealing with a man who immediately becomes competitive just because they're a girl. I'll tell you guys a quick story. I'll never forget this. We were at Fox Hills Mall here in la. And the new Smash Bros. Was coming out. And my little sister, she's the youngest of three boys, so all she done in video games is train with her three older brothers. So the video game's coming out, they're doing the demo. My little sister picks up the controller and the guy looks at her like, and just, just has a complete attitude about, like, why do I gotta play this little girl?
My little sister didn't come off of those sticks for an hour. She beat every single guy that walked. Grown man kids, all of them. So, you know, I'm very grateful for women like JN who are in the, in the field to help give a safe space to women in gaming. Man.
[00:07:55] Speaker B: Well, Jan, to stay on that topic for a minute is that, you know, I understood, I guess, during my time, while there may have been particular misogynistic attitudes toward women who game, as you have been into gaming, how have you seen those attitudes progress or have they progressed or like, where. What would you say is the state of how it is for women gamers?
[00:08:18] Speaker C: I would say the attitude still exists, but I would say they're not the sole focus anymore. I think there's, you know, a wider understanding of what a gamer is, that it maybe would have been focused on just men. Back in the day, social media democratized things. Streaming democratized things. So you now see a variety of different people playing games, not just straight men who always were the representative representatives of games in media and in the characters as well. So I would say it's improved a lot. You know, you have communities on my own, you have streamers and content creators like Cleo, who has great, really diverse communities too.
So gaming is for everyone. And I think now brands, publishers understand that they're coming out with new stories, but there is a still like a microcosm of men, specifically, who have intertwined their ability to game with their ego. And they can't take that. Other people in this space, they feel like an ownership or that you need to have their approval and so they'll try and disprove that you're a gamer. What's Mario's? How many laces does he have on your left shoe? And I don't care about none of that. I pick up the pad and I play.
So.
But that's mostly online, I think, for the main part. So I think it's changed. I definitely think it's improved.
[00:09:31] Speaker B: Yeah, no, Cleo, when it comes to diversity and inclusion in the gaming community, I mean, Listen, there's over 200 million people in this country, that game. All right. And a significant people who game are black or people of color in general. And so how have you felt gaming has been in terms of inclusiveness? Like what. How would you characterize the state of what that is like?
[00:09:55] Speaker A: Is it.
[00:09:55] Speaker B: Would you consider it an inclusive community from what you've experienced?
[00:10:00] Speaker D: Yes, I would consider it a inclusive community because you're getting a chance now to connect with so many other people out there who are into the niches as you are. I remember when I did Roll Bounce and the only game that was getting played on set was Madden and NBA Live. And then I would go back to my trailer and I'm playing at that time, what we had, Final Fantasy 10, I believe was as well, we had the bouncer on PlayStation 2. So just a different genre of games. But no one around the set was into this kind of stuff. So it's really just me and my brother playing these kinds of games. When I launched my, my Twitch channel, I got a chance to connect with so many people around the world who love RPGs the way I do, who love fighting games the way that I do. We have games like south of Midnight, which just ones just won the game award this year, which is an incredible story. You have a. A black woman as on. Not only on the COVID but like her story of living in the south and getting over generational trauma. Beautiful story that got told. So to answer your question, yes, inclusion is, is. Is a big part of where we are today and why gaming has reached the masses the way it has.
[00:11:06] Speaker B: When you all are deciding whether or not you want to try a new game, do you think sort of gameplay first or you think story first, which is more like important to you?
[00:11:15] Speaker C: For me, it's story I game because of narrative. I love stories in different forms, medium, film, TV games, but with specific games, especially like games from back in the day and they had the more pixelated, the 16 bit, 32 bit. I still appreciate a good story that comes via that medium, even if it's not the most modern or contemporary graphical style. So for me it's story first. And also for instance, like stories like south of Midnight, beautiful tale that has not been told in gaming before, you know, focusing on the culture of the black south, like no one's been doing that. And that for me, regardless of the art style, which is still beautiful, is still like a really pivotal moment for me to experience essentially. So yeah, story first.
[00:12:01] Speaker D: Yeah. Me being a variety gamer and streamer, it's. It's both, it's I look forward to being told a great story and going on this journey with these characters and picking up some side characters along the way.
But also depending on the genre of game for sure. I love, like I mentioned, I love fighters, but I also love RPGs. Yeah.
[00:12:19] Speaker B: Now you, you guys are both multi hyphenates as perfect description for you both. Now Cleo, everybody knows about your acting career, of course. Your iconic role in Holes and you mentioned role bounce.
[00:12:30] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:12:31] Speaker B: And what was it? Next Friday.
[00:12:33] Speaker D: Friday after next Friday after next.
[00:12:34] Speaker B: Right, okay. Friday.
[00:12:35] Speaker D: Baby Cleo. Baby Cleo.
[00:12:37] Speaker B: Yeah. So you've been in acting for a while. So what was the point where you felt yourself pivoting or at least including sort of gaming and being online as part of your entertainment profile?
[00:12:50] Speaker D: Man, I had always had a console on every set I worked on. Right. My first big boy purchase was on the set of Holes. I walked into the store and not my mom money, not my dad money. I bought my PlayStation 1 with the flip up screen. So that lets me know.
[00:13:03] Speaker B: Like a baller.
[00:13:04] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly.
[00:13:05] Speaker D: Right. All that. I was like, yeah, this is what I'm buying. I was supposed to spend that money, that per diem money on food. I was like, nah, console. So that, that really was the genesis of me understanding my love for gaming and entertainment. The fact that I was able to bring that console to set. I had my cast members playing games with me. I walked on the set of Walking Tall and I played the rock in a WWF game that he's actually in.
So these are like little, little moments in my acting side that gaming was always involved and especially with me and my family, me being the, the oldest, like that's was our bonding, that was how the siblings got together. And sometimes we fought or we would just pick up the sticks and battle it out. What it was for me though is right before we went into the, the quarantine, I was getting ready to have my own late night talk show. And I pitched the idea of we don't have a modern day Arsenio Hall. This is what I want to do. And we're getting ready to shoot the pilot second week of April in 2020. And then it got stripped away because everyone had to go in quarantine. So that means no more live and studio audience. The ideas I had, it all goes away.
So I studied the Twitch platform for the first three months of us being in quarantine because I was aware of it, but I didn't see anyone that looked like me. I didn't see anyone who came from the Same background as I did. They had the same skill set. So I studied it for three months. I have the notepad still of everything that I learned just studying everybody. And then I launched it on the fourth month. Fully fleshed out notifications, the bits, the graphics, the transitions. So again, combined all the ideas I had for the talk show and my love for gaming and turned that into the Clio show. And it's been an amazing journey.
Playing some of my favorite retro games, playing some of the newest stuff that's, that's come out, getting the chance to partner with some amazing brands. You know, growing up as an actor, first used to audition for the commercials.
These same brands that I have auditioned with since I was a kid are now coming to work with me because of the gaming aspect of me. So it's a great journey of adaptation.
[00:14:58] Speaker B: Now, Jayann, you created an online community for black girl gamers, right? So what made you feel compelled to do something like this? Because you could have just been a part of the community and then that's it. But you worked hard to curate something in particular for people, people like you.
[00:15:15] Speaker C: So I kind of initially started off with my own platform.
[00:15:18] Speaker D: This is.
[00:15:19] Speaker C: I've grown up with games as well. Similar first console was Nintendo. And in college university times, I noticed a couple of white male friends of mine who would like go on the stream Twitch and then, or YouTube I think it was at the time, and then use African American vernacular English, AAV as like the punchline of the joke. And I was like, you're not even American, let alone black, to be talking this way. And also I'm gonna create my own channel where it's, you know, more culturally relevant. And then after a while I was like, where are the other black women? Created black girl gamers as a Facebook group because of one, the exclusion that I felt in the stories, but also in the, in just the gaming community. And then two, because when I used to read the media like the magazines, they used to have gaming magazines with the CD ROMs and the demos, I didn't see anyone that recognized, like, I couldn't relate to the media. I didn't see anyone that recognized that I recognized or related to me. So then I created black girl gamers. After word of mouth, it kind of grew, especially with me calling out the industry for the lack of black female characters.
There were like 14 human playable ones at the time. And I was like, where are we? I've got Geralt, I've got Nathan Drake, I've got Indiana Jones, I've got All of these white male characters, there's so much, so much. So there's a joke, there's a bingo card of them. Where are we? Where are the black women?
So calling that out and then over time starting to partner with brands to get more black black women gamers, content creators and developers opportunities. So that's why a Talent events consulting started to consult on games as well to make sure that the black characters and just the gameplay is aligned with cultural elements in the gameplay. So it was needed and I've always said that the space was needed to be a progressive one, not just a safe one. Like you said, I didn't want to just be in the community and be like, hey, it's me, I I game.
No, there's changes that need to be had and today you see like people like Sarah Blonde and Johanna Faris at the leadership level. So I can say that change has definitely happened and I'm really happy to have at least played a part in just the way the industry looks at black women.
[00:17:30] Speaker B: I think for a lot of people they have this perception of who a gamer is, what a gamer looks like and how a gamer dresses.
[00:17:37] Speaker C: For sure.
[00:17:38] Speaker B: Yes, right, for sure. I think they're just imagining somebody just holed up in their parents basement and you know, not having much sense of style or swag or fashion. You clearly, that is clearly a stereotype and a trope you are defeating. Because I'm checking the fit and I'm like, okay, I see how you get down. But you've been able to incorporate fashion into gaming and bringing that as kind of a part of your expansive profile. So how did that start?
[00:18:05] Speaker C: Okay, so fashion's always been and gaming have always intersected for me. I remember for those from the uk, oh, there's a Primark in the US yes there is. But Primark is a really cheap shop and I used to get my gaming T shirts from there and just pair it with a pair of jeans all the time. But over time I just noticed that gaming and fashion seemed to be juxtaposed and I think it's because gaming was positioned such as a masculine hobby and fashion is positioned such a feminine thing to do.
So in 2020 I created and co partnered an event called Gamer Girls Night in because a lot of gamer events are made from the male lens and so that combines combines gaming, beauty and fashion together. And we work with brands like nyx, Cosmetics, Makeup Revolution, Riot Games, Ubisoft, a bunch of different games from different places.
And for me, like these two areas don't have to be juxtapositions at all. They've always been who I am. Like even now, this is a Street Fighter character and I'm wearing black owned businesses as well. I just need to shout that out.
So I never understood why these two things were positioned at opposite ends of each other, apart from the fact that it was probably purposely done because gaming was at the time masculine and femininity wasn't welcome at the time.
[00:19:21] Speaker B: So yeah, Cleo, because you found a way to kind of merge who you are as an actor with gaming when you were really strongly in the gaming community, how much pressure did you feel to prove? Like, no, I'm a real gamer
[00:19:37] Speaker D: a lot. A bit of.
Like I mentioned being on the set of Roll Bounce. I only saw two games being in constant rotation. So I did feel like the odd guy out because I loved games like Castlevania, Symphony of the Night, like Metal Gear Solid, like Mega Man X1 through 4, Gears of War. Like these are games that I absolutely loved and I couldn't talk about them with many other people because they weren't into those kinds of games.
So it was that aspect. But also just knowing that given when I built my platform, I'd be able to showcase that knowledge. You know, growing up watching networks like G4 and things like that, like those were what I was tuning into because this was my general love for this space.
So yeah, I felt a little bit of it. But at the same time it's like if it ever talked about, I'm like, oh no, no, I really do this, this is my love. Like this is a passion of mine. If you park into my house, you'd see four arcades, like I said, retro consoles all over the place. Like it's, it's, it's that for me.
[00:20:33] Speaker B: Did you sense people were trying to try you a little bit just because of where you came from?
[00:20:37] Speaker D: I think so. I. Maybe, maybe it's one of those things for me, it's like, especially I, I guess the competitive nature in me. That's why I always kind of gravitated toward fighters because it's just you and the other person with two controllers in your hands and let's just see what happens. And I always would like to go home with a dub, so.
[00:20:52] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and because you're on Twitch though, and just this part of this online streaming world, like what's the longest time you spent streaming?
[00:21:01] Speaker D: I did an impromptu 12 hour stream once.
[00:21:05] Speaker C: If you said 24 hours, I would have.
[00:21:07] Speaker D: No, no, absolutely no.
This was like in 2020 or 20, 21.
[00:21:12] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:21:12] Speaker D: And we had hit a sub goal.
[00:21:13] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:21:14] Speaker D: And I said, okay, well, every time we reach the next sub goal, we'll extend it an hour. And we got up to 12 hours. Now, I didn't plan for that, so I regret doing it because I didn't have everything in play. I would have did it a lot different. I would have said, you know, this moment up, we're going to talk about this. We're going to bring food in. It's completely different. I would set it up like the show.
Doing it impromptu was not the right.
[00:21:36] Speaker B: Not a good idea.
[00:21:37] Speaker D: That next day wiped out. That wiped out for sure. So 12 hours, I've done it. What about you?
[00:21:43] Speaker C: I think seven.
Yeah, I think I remember a time like on Twitch where people doing, like 24 hour streams and it was really bad. Like, I think someone was fatal for someone. And there was this. This idea that, you know, you need to stream for 24 hours to create an audience. Stop that foolishness. Go and eat and sleep. I agree.
[00:22:01] Speaker B: So when you have to use the bathroom, like what you just did, I
[00:22:04] Speaker D: have to throw up a be right back screen.
[00:22:06] Speaker C: It's a whole production.
[00:22:07] Speaker B: Okay. It's a whole little thing.
[00:22:09] Speaker C: All right.
[00:22:09] Speaker B: Okay. You know, I'm sounding like auntie over here because I'm just like, do you.
[00:22:13] Speaker C: You're gonna be up soon. Don't worry.
[00:22:14] Speaker B: We're gonna get you guys gonna bring me up to speed. So, like, when you're. When you're doing something, you know, like that. And I guess this is the part that fascinates me about where we are in today's culture is like, how much people just like to be voyeurs. Like, I remember when the movie I'm. I know I'm dating myself. The Truman show came out, I was like, ah, that seems like a crazy idea. Now it's like, everything's the Truman Show. So how do you all deal psychologically with the fact that you're kind of always on and always online? Like, how do you all handle that, that sort of psychological burden? I don't know.
[00:22:51] Speaker D: There is a check in and check out for me, but I think I've only have that skill set because of my career and what I got a chance to learn and sharpen over time. So I'm aware of the difference. I do things that I make sure to put a limit on how much is given to the world. And I'm being honest. I've given a lot to this entertainment industry since I was five. I started when I was five years old with this and holes happens at 13. So it's been 20, 22 years, 23 years of being in the spotlight in a sense. So being able to know when to turn it off and on is very, very important.
[00:23:26] Speaker C: I mean for me, I'm private too.
Nobody needs to know any of my business.
I think it's different though. Obviously, you know, Cleo is the front facing person of his brand, whereas I'm more of like, I have the more of the community and more on the agency kind of side.
But you know, even then with some of the stuff I do like moments like this where in 2024 there was this period of time called Gamergate where I guess that undercurrent culture that I mentioned earlier that she's now in the fringes came to a head on social media and people were taking my photos and making YouTube videos about me. I had to go to the police because I received death threats.
So I've always been grateful for that privacy that I've allowed myself because when the moments came where had I not been private, a lot of my personal information would have been out in the world.
It's not for me. I don't need everyone's attention. I just need my impact to be resonating and that's pretty much it. So.
But I respect people that do because it is a lot like you, like you say, you give a lot and it's good that you have those check in and check out moments because you're human.
[00:24:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Do you, I mean, do you, within that, do you ever feel pressured to be out there more? Because like you said, you're pretty private. But I'm sure there are people like, hey, maybe you should put yourself out there a little more.
[00:24:42] Speaker C: Myself out every morning, every time, every time I don't post or do something, I cuss myself out because I definitely think, you know, a lot more opportunity would either come to myself or to the business with me putting myself out more. So it's actually a learning curve for me right now to do. So we'll see how it goes.
[00:25:03] Speaker B: How much do you all consider gaming to be therapy?
[00:25:07] Speaker C: Oh, that's a good question. I do 100, I think.
It's not your holistic therapy. Let me make what I'm saying great.
[00:25:15] Speaker B: I'm not saying you're replacing it with a therapist. Yeah.
[00:25:18] Speaker C: Having an anxiety attack. Just pick up a controller.
I think it's great for, well, let me not even say just for myself. Our community, black girl gamers, we survey them, survey them every year. And one of the main reasons it comes back is that it's for escapism. It helps soothe anxiety, relaxes them after a day of work and it helps them connect with other people. And a lot of the data supports that. I think you can over index on anything and that's where things become dangerous. So if you're able to have like those boundaries, fine. And I think gaming is great for your, your puzzle solving, your cognitive understanding of things. Pattern recognition, I think it's very, very good for you. Just again, all in, in measurements.
[00:26:03] Speaker B: Yeah. Give these kids an argument to tell their parents, talk about why they should be playing more.
[00:26:08] Speaker D: You know, the genre of cozy gaming took off, I believe, Pandemic.
[00:26:11] Speaker B: Right.
[00:26:11] Speaker D: That was a, there was a huge understanding of what it was doing to people to allow them to just for the first time exhale.
Animal Crossing, Stardew Valley, like those, those games were meant so much. And I look back even in my life, I remember when I played Legend, Legend of Zelda, Ocarina of time on the N64 as a kid like that. I love the music so much of that game. And then here we are years later when we get the last two Legend of Zelda games, Breath of the Wild and the other one. I find myself so relaxed playing those, those two specifically it, they're so expensive.
[00:26:42] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:26:42] Speaker D: And as you mentioned, the pattern recognition, the puzzle solving, it's all there. And we, you talk about, you know, kids telling their, their parents, hey, let me play the games. You kind of got to look at the landscape. You might want to look at the landscape a little bit different than what you looked at it when they were growing up.
[00:26:56] Speaker C: This is it as well, because people have this con, this idea that games are just shoot em ups and games are a medium. There are a plethora of genres, just like TV and film. There's games like Abzu and Journey, which are phenomenal, just beautiful masterpieces where it's just music and vast landscapes and you're flying or you're sailing through the sea.
Those are games. But I think that idea or the perception of games is so limited because of this.
[00:27:23] Speaker B: It's like Call of Duty is what people think of.
[00:27:24] Speaker C: Right, right. And don't get me wrong, I like to be a Call of Duty sometimes, but it's not the necessarily like it's not the entirety of what games can be.
[00:27:33] Speaker B: Now, given that both of you guys are, you know, you're people of color, you're in this industry that has been predominantly white, like what sense of responsibility do you both sort of individually Feel in terms of representing or you know, being a voice, like how much responsibility do you shoulder in that or feel like you should shoulder, I should say.
[00:27:55] Speaker C: I mean, I've put myself in the
[00:27:56] Speaker B: position to shoulder it. Yeah, you sort of made it a little obvious.
[00:28:00] Speaker C: I made it difficult to like be like, no, I'm just chaeyehyun.
So I feel an immense responsibility to do so. But I also feel the immense responsibility to help other people also do so.
You know, Black Girl gamers exist, but there's other organizations and communities out there that do great work for black people and people of color. Working with them to help them like target any issues we have in the industry is part of the work. And that also means it doesn't need to be just J and doing it. It doesn't need to be the spotlight on me and just. Yeah, that is a lot of responsibility. It can be a lot of pressure.
Yeah.
[00:28:37] Speaker D: Yeah. For me it was like I mentioned when I started my Twitch channel, I didn't see anyone that looked like me. So that was a big. That was an issue for me because everyone that I was seeing, they were only just playing Call of Duty. Really. That was the front page of Twitch and I was like, there's so much more out there.
So it was getting inspired by that, starting my channel, bringing in not only my family but even my close friend group for them to start streaming and talking about the games that they love to play and setting up game nights every Friday and Saturday for us to, you know, play. Play a Steam game that was like a mystery solving and so that they could see other people of, of color that love these kinds of games as well.
[00:29:15] Speaker C: I, I want to follow on that because that's kind of. We did the same thing when 2020. 2020. No, 2015. When I started Black Girl Gamers we then had a Twitch channel too. And at the time black women especially were lacked confidence in streaming with the camera on because of what would happen.
So what I did was set up a stream team of black women on the channel. So we had like maybe 10 and one person would stream least one person. So what that did was show people from the UK from US streaming on the channel and encourage other black women to do it. So sometimes it's not about you just shouldering that responsibility, it's about just showing others that there's a way forward. And to this day people say like black girl gamers stream team. And that channel was the reason why I started streaming or content creating. So showing, showing rather than telling is sometimes the Best way to go.
[00:30:07] Speaker B: There might be people right now who are, you know, watching or listening and maybe they're casually into it but still trying to of figure out their way in. I gave you guys my PTSD story about why I don't game anymore.
But if you're looking for like an entry point, an access point to get into gaming, where should people start?
[00:30:27] Speaker C: I have an answer for this, but I want to hear yours first.
[00:30:30] Speaker D: I think it also depends on what you want to get from gaming. If you're just gaming to game, there's no one stopping you from picking up a controller. There's no one stopping you. Go get yourself a console, find a genre that you like. If you heard of the, that this game was great, go after it. You know, if you're looking at it from more from a business perspective and you want to get into the streaming and you want to be the face of, of this brand and, and represent, you know, anyone coming after you, then you got to take it a completely different way. You know, you, you look at yourself as a business. You look at yourself as far as setting up a schedule. You do not get discouraged because the numbers don't look like this. It's not instant gratification because of a, like you have to eliminate all of that because the streaming space is a completely different monster through.
[00:31:10] Speaker C: I think I agree with what Cleo said. I think it depends on where you want to go. So if you want to work in the industry, I would say attend events, find communities that are like black girl gamers or black black in gaming, which is another one that has a lot of industry professionals and they will help you along the way. That's, that's somewhere that I wish I had growing up where I had people who I would be able to look at to find inspiration because my path into the industry was very unorthodox and very grassroots.
If you want to get into gaming as a person who just wants to play games, I always say this. Watch your taste in movies and you might find your taste in games because this I, I, the way that people, yeah, the way that people I guess ask about games is such, so flattened when really like I said, there's such a variety and plethora of games to play. Cooking games, racing games, sports games. If you like basketball, then maybe play a basketball game. So it really depends on you. So but again, like you said, it's the idea that there was this, this barrier to games and that you're not a real gamer. Ignore all of that. It's rubbish.
[00:32:23] Speaker D: Have you played overcooked.
[00:32:24] Speaker C: I love Overcooked one and two.
[00:32:26] Speaker D: Yeah, it was like.
[00:32:27] Speaker B: I would never have guessed they had a cooking game, I have to say, like, when you brought that up.
[00:32:30] Speaker D: They're fun.
[00:32:31] Speaker C: They're very fun.
[00:32:32] Speaker B: Okay. All right.
And before we get to the hard questions, because I haven't got to those yet, by the way, just. Just as a warning, I want to ask you this, this final sort of, you know, contemplative question.
If you both had a video game, like your own video game, like, what would you, like, what kind of game would it be? Or what would you call it?
[00:32:53] Speaker D: Oh, yeah, we're working on it right now. So look at that.
[00:32:57] Speaker B: Look at that. Break some news and you break the news.
[00:32:59] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:32:59] Speaker B: Break some news.
[00:33:01] Speaker D: So me and my family, we are called the four Controllers. Four Controllers with a K, by the way, on all social media platforms.
We are team Red. Me, Team Blue, my brother Kadeem. Team Yellow, my baby brother Hamil, my baby sister Kalia, Team Green. So we are setting up a Beat Em up game in which all four of us will have specific powers to be able to get to the final boss of this game.
But it's about not only if I could put it in the genre. So I'll say it's a Beat Em up game. If you've played Beat Em up. So you're familiar with, like, Streets of Rage and. Yeah, yeah, it's that. It's that kind of style. I'm excited about that. Yeah, we've been working on it for, like, two years, so I'm excited for people to see the trailer.
[00:33:41] Speaker B: Oh, wow. What, like, is that? I mean, what's that process like? Like developing your own game.
[00:33:45] Speaker D: What I loved about it is my little sister's an artist, so it was her who designed the sprites of the game. Like, that really meant a lot to me to empower her in that space not only as her love for gaming, but also will show her that she can bring that art to life in a way. So that's gonna be. That has been the fun process as far as seeing her bring these sprites to the. The design team.
Also really important for me was the music because I mentioned earlier, Mega Man X is one of my favorite video games. So they have this very specific electronic rock kind of thing, and we wanted to figure out if we could replicate that sound and will it feel still feel good in this generation of gaming. So, I mean, I'm excited for those two things.
[00:34:24] Speaker C: I'm excited for you.
[00:34:25] Speaker B: Yes. I'm like, beaming with ride Right now.
[00:34:27] Speaker D: So sick. It's man the arm.
[00:34:29] Speaker C: Vertical slice. Yet you. You got vertical slice?
[00:34:31] Speaker D: Yes, yes, yes. Okay.
[00:34:34] Speaker C: All right.
[00:34:35] Speaker B: What about you? If you were creating a game for yourself, what would it be?
[00:34:39] Speaker C: I would create a game for myself. I consult on games at the moment, like with the narrative, as I mentioned, the game that I would. I'm Jamaican, so I would have a game called Yard Food, and it would be basically like a Jamaican cooking game. Okay.
[00:34:51] Speaker B: Yeah. All right.
[00:34:52] Speaker C: And then we'd expand to other, like. Like cuisines in the Black diaspora. So would have other Caribbean food, soul food. And I would just want that to be a cooking game because Cooking games. You play cooking games, right?
Yeah. They often focus on either European or Asian cooking. And that's great. I don't mind that. But where's our food?
[00:35:10] Speaker B: If I saw oxtail pop up, you know.
You know, Exactly. Hungry right in the world, you know, bro. What?
[00:35:18] Speaker D: Listen, I'm in.
[00:35:19] Speaker B: That does sound like a great idea.
[00:35:21] Speaker D: Okay, what about the arguments that are going to be happening in the living room?
[00:35:23] Speaker B: I know.
[00:35:24] Speaker D: Families.
[00:35:25] Speaker B: I know.
[00:35:25] Speaker C: Oh, and that's what I want.
[00:35:27] Speaker D: You gotta do drama.
[00:35:28] Speaker B: I. I love it.
[00:35:29] Speaker C: If there's a team out there, shout me because I'm ready to go.
[00:35:31] Speaker D: Oh, that's sick.
[00:35:32] Speaker B: All right, now we've come to the difficult portion of our interview. It's a little game that we are playing with all image unscripted guests. It is called this or that.
Two choices. Pick one. Don't create a third. No questions, no context.
Listen. Okay. All right.
Gaming chair or couch?
[00:35:54] Speaker C: Gaming chair.
[00:35:55] Speaker B: Gaming chair. Okay.
PlayStation 4. PlayStation 5.
[00:35:58] Speaker C: PlayStation 5.
[00:36:01] Speaker B: Ooh, ooh.
[00:36:03] Speaker D: PlayStation.
PlayStation 4.
PlayStation 4.
[00:36:08] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:36:09] Speaker D: PlayStation 4. We got some classics on the PS4. I'm going.
[00:36:11] Speaker B: We do.
[00:36:12] Speaker C: We do. That's true.
[00:36:13] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:36:13] Speaker B: You guys have mentioned this game, these games a couple of times. Smash Brothers and Mario Kart.
[00:36:20] Speaker C: Marot.
[00:36:21] Speaker D: Smash. Smash Bros. Smash Brothers.
[00:36:25] Speaker B: PC or console?
[00:36:29] Speaker D: I mean, this. I'm on the Steam Machine.
[00:36:32] Speaker B: PC.
[00:36:33] Speaker C: But that's. That's. That's in the middle.
[00:36:34] Speaker B: She said no thought, but she don't know. The.
[00:36:36] Speaker C: The Steam Machine is not out yet, though.
[00:36:38] Speaker D: Would you consider a piece?
[00:36:39] Speaker C: I want the Steam Machine.
[00:36:40] Speaker B: I know that you guys are collaborating. I don't think I've seen this yet in this part.
[00:36:44] Speaker C: It's room. It's PC for the living room.
[00:36:45] Speaker D: But you're putting the. Okay, okay. All right.
[00:36:48] Speaker C: PC. PC. PC.
[00:36:49] Speaker B: You know, this is not like Family Feud where you have to, like.
[00:36:54] Speaker C: We're taking it seriously.
[00:36:56] Speaker B: I see landscape here.
That is correct. All Right.
Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat?
[00:37:02] Speaker C: Street File?
[00:37:03] Speaker D: Mortal Kombat.
[00:37:05] Speaker C: Come on.
[00:37:07] Speaker D: MK Forever.
[00:37:09] Speaker B: All right, so. So this is sort of our version of marry kill. All right.
Xbox PlayStation 5 or Nintendo Wii?
[00:37:18] Speaker C: PlayStation 5.
[00:37:19] Speaker D: Oh gosh, that is that one.
[00:37:21] Speaker C: Hey man, PlayStation 5.
[00:37:23] Speaker B: You what you marrying?
Are you having relations?
[00:37:27] Speaker C: Biblical relations with the way business relationships are set up right now?
[00:37:32] Speaker D: That's what I'm saying. I'm like can we, can we not accept that one?
[00:37:39] Speaker C: I was about to open my mouth.
[00:37:40] Speaker D: Let's just accept that one.
[00:37:41] Speaker B: Okay, ok. We'll euro step that way.
[00:37:43] Speaker C: All right.
[00:37:44] Speaker B: I will make this the final one. You lucky. I'm gonna take it easy on y'. All. All right?
Would you rather play with your spouse, significant other situationships, friends with benefits, whatever, or just have them give you your peace and leave you alone while you play?
[00:38:01] Speaker C: We can't do either or you, Ted.
[00:38:03] Speaker B: You gotta pick one or the other. Would you rather play game with them or have the peace and serenity of gaming alone?
[00:38:13] Speaker C: I don't think he's gonna take this the wrong way. Gaming alone. Gaming alone because I like story driven games the most.
So that's my, that's why I game, that's my time, that's my escape time. And I don't want to be playing that with nobody else.
[00:38:27] Speaker D: I'm a gaming alone kind of guy.
[00:38:28] Speaker B: I'm not surprised at this.
[00:38:29] Speaker D: I'm a gaming alone kind of guy. If you put it in that context, I'm a game alone. Me along kind of.
[00:38:34] Speaker B: Okay, cuz you did mention that you don't mind, you know, finding games.
[00:38:37] Speaker D: Yeah, that we can co op.
[00:38:39] Speaker B: That you can co op with. Absolutely. But what if they were like, like a lame game? Then it's like, do you. How does that negotiation work if it's a lame game? Like if it's a game you're like that's not really that cool. Or will you suffer through just for the togetherness?
[00:38:50] Speaker D: We going to suffer, I mean. Oh, we just going to suffer.
[00:38:53] Speaker B: You know, we can play this hour of this. We can play this hour.
[00:38:57] Speaker D: They're going to let that slide.
[00:38:58] Speaker B: Okay. All right.
[00:39:00] Speaker C: Hour I could do an hour. I could do continuously.
[00:39:02] Speaker B: No, you're like no. Okay. It can't be a thing.
[00:39:04] Speaker D: No.
[00:39:04] Speaker B: All right, well listen, J.N. and Cleo, I want to thank you guys for joining me here on Image Unscripted. Congratulations again on your nominations and for continuing to blaze trails in your own unique ways and merging all the things from fashion to acting to proving that you don't just have to fit in one box if you're a gamer. So thank you so much for joining me.
[00:39:26] Speaker D: Thank you for having us.
[00:39:27] Speaker C: Thank you. Thank you.
[00:39:28] Speaker A: That's it for this episode of Image Unscripted, presented by the naacp. Huge thanks to J. Ann Lopez Cleo Thomas for pulling up and keeping us in the know about what's going on
[00:39:38] Speaker B: in the gaming world.
[00:39:39] Speaker A: Now, if you enjoyed this candid conversation, share it with a friend, subscribe on YouTube, and leave us a comment on Apple Podcasts. Set your alerts on your podcast platform so you don't miss the next episode as I chat with those who are expanding the conversation of what it means to be brilliant. Until until next time, keep it black, keep it brilliant, keep it unscripted.
